Has God Cast Away His People? GOD FORBID! (VIDEO)

 

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of  the tribe of Benjamin.  God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew” (Romans 11: 1-2)

Pauls’ words from Romans 11 should resonate with every born again, blood washed believer in Yeshua!  God saved Saul of Tarsus as he was on the road to Damascus to persecute and kill Christians!

God changed his name to Paul who became the greatest evangelist in all of  history!

Can you imagine living your life thinking that you are a true Christian, but dying and meeting the Lord Jesus Christ and having Him say to you:

“I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Those dreaded words come from this passage of Scripture:

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:21-23)

You might say to me “But Salvation doesn’t say anything about having to love the Jewish people or Israel!”   To that I would say “Salvation DOES speak of repentance. In this case, many who have been anti-Semites their whole life need to “repent” of this great evil and trust the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.

And by the way, their Lord and Savior walked this earth as a Jew!

Listen to Dr. Adrian Rogers speak on “Is God Through With the Jews?”

Pastor Rogers went home years ago to be with his glorious Savior!

Most of us have heard of the false teaching called Replacement Theology.

I’m here to tell you – It’s a lie from the pit of hell.

Replacement Theology (RT), has been around for centuries. The term used by theologians is supersessionism. The church supersedes Israel. Theologians have cited the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD as proof that God was finished with the Jewish people.

There are two main schools of thought regarding RT:

Israel’s role as God’s Chosen was completed once Jesus came to earth (economic supersessionism).

Because of her disobedience, Israel forfeited her role as Chosen of God because of her rejection of Jesus as Messiah (punitive supersessionism).

Punitive supersessionism was clearly articulated by Martin Luther in his sermon: “On the Jews and Their Lies.”

For such ruthless wrath of God is sufficient evidence that they [i.e., the Jewish people] assuredly have erred and gone astray. Even a child can comprehend this. For one dare not regard God as so cruel that he would punish his own people so long, so terrible, so unmercifully … Therefore this work of wrath is proof that the Jews, surely rejected by God, are no longer his people, and neither is he any longer their God. (“On the Jews and Their Lies,” Trans. Martin H. Bertram, in Luther’s Works [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971], p. 265).

How could a man used of God as was Martin Luther come to such a conclusion about the Jews? It is written that later in his life, Luther was convinced that he was called of God to save the Jews. When his efforts failed, he became enraged. In one night, in response to his anti-Semitic sermon, synagogues were burned to the ground and over 2000 Jews were slaughtered. Martin Luther was used by God in a mighty way in the Great Reformation, but alas he was merely a man. His teachings about Jews had a dramatic impact on the church in Germany for many years to come. Hitler was a great fan of Luther. He carried the sermon: “On the Jews and Their Lies” to every SS meeting.

RT is closely related to Reformed or Covenant Theology, which is associated with John Calvin. If you’ve noticed that your pastor does not speak or teach on eschatology (the study of End Times) it’s most likely that the leadership of your church adhere to amillennialism. A view of eschatology which views End Times prophecy as “spiritual” instead of literal. It’s a convenient way of avoiding the promises made to Israel in the Word. Since the proponents of RT believe that the church inherited the promises made to Israel, there is no need to teach that End Times prophecy is literal. The prophecies are viewed more as allegorical.

It has always amazed me that churches who teach RT completely ignore some critically important words by the apostle Paul in Romans 11. I would HIGHLY recommend that you read all of Romans 11 (9 and 10 as well) but Romans 11 truly expresses why the Jews did not receive their Savior, and clearly shows that God is not done with His Chosen people.

I would love to print all of Romans 11, but I am placing what I consider to be the heart of this chapter:

“For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all” (Romans 11:25-32).

How could this be any clearer? God ordained that a blindness in part would happen to Israel, until all of the Gentiles who were to be saved would come into His Kingdom. It also states the gifts of and the calling of God are irrevocable.

God’s plan from the beginning was to offer salvation to the entire world. He used the Jewish people to bring His law to show His Holiness, and then through their lineage He would ultimately bring His Son to pay for all sin. What a merciful and loving God we serve!

Satan is determined to lie and deceive mankind. He uses just a little bit of truth (Scripture) and then twists it for his purposes. He knows the Word better than any one of us. His motivation for memorizing God’s Word is to seek and destroy God’s people. He started in the Garden of Eden with Eve. He tried it against Jesus in the wilderness. Jesus always fought him (and shut him down) with pure Scripture.

God made a Covenant with Israel. I’ve read articles by Bible teachers who claim that Israel relinquished the promises made by God because of their rebellion. God cannot lie. He made the promises. It has nothing to do with how good or bad Israel is. It has everything to do with God and His faithfulness.

What about when we, who have been born again, sin or stumble? Can you imagine if God would take back His promise to us and say “I am done with you!”  None of us would have assurance of Salvation!  I am not speaking of people who say a prayer and continue living in sin with no godly repentance.  I speak of born again believers. We still fall into sin, but God has promised us this:

 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”  (1 John 1:9).

As a student in the synagogue I attended when I was a child, the history of my people saddened me. I learned of the persecution by the Catholic Church. I learned that no matter where we went, ultimately we were placed in ghettos with locked gates. We were HATED. I would ponder in my mind why—what did we do to warrant such hatred and oppression? It wasn’t until I was born- again that I realized why. It was Satan all along. He placed hatred in the hearts of men and women for the Jews.

But I never thought that it would be this extreme. I’m shocked as I read the news and see the world flying the swastika flag all across the globe. It literally makes me sick. But I know that all things must happen according to His plan. It took the extermination of 6 million of my people to bring about the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel in 1948 – a prophecy that many proponents of RT did not expect.

Israel is Israel. The church is the church. In the Old Testament, Israel was under the Law. Jesus brought us the Covenant of Grace. We are FREE in Him.

“For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John 1:17).

“Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:8-11).

Jesus was sent to earth for one reason—to die. It was His precious blood which cleansed the repentant sinner, and made him/her righteous in the eyes of the Father. Every Jew needs to come to the Father through Jesus Christ. There is no special arrangement between the Jewish people and God.

So, if you are in a church that believes that God has cast away His people—the Jews, please understand that what is being taught is not truth. Have you noticed that most of the RT denominations are vehemently anti-Israel? Are you starting to see that Satan’s plan to destroy God’s children has worked in most of the mainline churches? Here is a list of churches who believe the RT lie:

The Roman Catholic Church.  (This is NOT part of Christianity)

(Many) Southern Baptist Convention churches – (depends on leadership).

The United Methodist Church.

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.

Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.).

The Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod.

African Methodist Episcopal Church.

The Episcopal Church.

Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America .

African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church.

United Church of Christ.

Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, Joplin, Mo.

Emergent Churches

Vineyard Churches

Third Wave Churches

**I am certain there are many more. Anti Semitism and hatred for Israel is at an all time high. Satan knows that his days are numbered. He loathes the Jewish people because out of them came our Messiah Yeshua.

Please understand that in each of these denominations, it is possible to have a pastor who is a true shepherd under the Great Shepherd Jesus. But these denominations are known to adhere to the RT lie.

These churches have declared their hatred for Israel and are supporting Hamas. This is exactly what the devil wants to happen. But our Lord, being omniscient, is using all of this to fulfill His prophetic Word concerning Israel.

“And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.” (Zechariah 12:3)

From Arutz Sheva from Israel:

“These very liberal churches include Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, and the United Church of Christ. They presently number about 16 million. Their membership and influence in the United States continue to decline. These churches’ rhetoric is usually outdone by an even harsher one of a small group of so-called ‘peace churches,’ including the Mennonites and Quakers.”

“Mainline churches claim many members from Congress. They represent America’s heartland and have adopted a range of resolutions hostile to Israel. They include calls for boycotts plus divestment and sanctions (BDS). Some are aimed at Israel, others focus on the ‘settlements.’ Several churches supported the hateful Kairos Palestine Document published in 2009 by some Palestinian Christians. There is also tourism to Israel under Palestinian auspices.

“BDS started with the passage of a resolution in 2004 at the Presbyterian Church (USA) calling for selective divestment of shares of American companies doing business in Israel. Long before that, the World Council of Churches (WCC) founded in 1948, aligned itself with ‘third world’ countries and thinking. This is an international umbrella group of mainline churches which claims denominational membership of 590 million people. It has frequently condemned Israel, yet never protested attempts by Israel’s neighbors and by terrorists to erase it from the map.

“Several of these churches also publish extremely anti-Israel educational materials. These are often the only ones members will view. The Methodists produced a study guide a few years ago authored by an apostate Jewish pastor. He admitted to hating Judaism. It featured illustrations of Israeli soldiers reminiscent of Nazi guards at a concentration camp.

“Theology is playing an increasing role in mainline churches’ anti-Israel activity. It began with the Sabeel Ecumenical Liberation Theology Center and its head, Dr. Naim Ateek. Many liberal churches have partnered with Sabeel. Ateek used crucifixion imagery in his Easter message of 2001: ‘It seems to many of us that Jesus is on the cross again with thousands of crucified Palestinians around him.’

” This reintroduces the ancient murderous Christian charge of deicide against the Jews. Ateek and others deny that the Bible speaks of any covenant of land with the Jews. This is a renewal of the replacement theology and supersessionism, and is extremely dangerous for Jews around the world, especially at a time of rising anti-Semitism.

“Palestinian influences in anti-Israel hate mongering is huge. They have sent teams of Palestinian Christians around the U.S for a decade, tugging at Christian heartstrings with emotional tales of woe. They are more effective than Palestinian Muslims, who don’t come as ‘brothers.’
“Still, there are surprises. In 2012, several denominations substituted positive investment resolutions in place of divestment. In some cases, votes that looked like they were heading in the anti-Israel direction were saved by impassioned speeches by pastors who spoke about the impact such a resolution would have on Jewish-Christian friendships and partnerships in their churches.

“The actions of these mainline churches have poisoned the well of Christian-Jewish dialogue. Jews entered the dialogue, which has been fruitful at times, on the basis of assurances that Christian partners left contempt for Jews and Judaism behind, and had made serious attempts to understand what was important to Jews. The way in which these churches treat Israel shows that neither is true.” – source

I ask you this: Even if you have been in one church for years, if they are teaching a lie, would it not be the right thing to do to leave and attempt to find a gathering of brothers and sisters in Christ who believe the whole Word of God?

“And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed” (Genesis 12:3).

And a word to those seeking a place to worship:

ASK QUESTIONS!

You have a right to know how leadership feels about very important issues – whether they believe the whole Word of God or choose to add or take away from God’s Holy Word.

Shalom b’Yeshua

Maranatha!

40 thoughts on “Has God Cast Away His People? GOD FORBID! (VIDEO)

  1. The Brat

    Great Article! I’m so glad you took this subject and wrote a Heartfelt message. The history of the children of Israel has been unbelievable. I have never read such a persecution of people in history books. It started much earlier than the Holocaust as many are familiar with. I thank you for your truthful article and calling out churches who teach this deceiving falsehood. Blessing.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. This was a sobering reminder of the spiritual blindness of America’s churches. The list of denominations and fellowships that teach replacement theology is shocking. I would love to see a follow-up article listing denominations and fellowships that endorse and teach the truth about Israel. There was a time when Calvary Chapel would have made that list but I know there has been a split in recent years over doctrine. Maybe the Assemblies of God too?

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      1. Pete Kever

        Geri there are a lot of real true Christians who believe God 100% fulfilled all of His promises to Israel through Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection. Can you kindly explain why this makes us “of hell”? Or antisemetic? Or calling God a liar? I would love a post on that. Thank you.

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  3. You are correct that this all comes from satan, who hates God’s people. Logic tells you if they weren’t still God’s people, the world would have ignored them. Instead, they’re singled out.
    Another logical source to look at is how miraculously the Jews were protected and saved, after the fledgling state of israel was established in 1948, when immediately they were attacked on all sides. As such a young and not-well-developed nation, they shouldn’t have been able to win every war that was started against them, but instead, it was obviously God-their God, that caused them to win-even in six days! It reminds me of when the israelites had to fight huge armies and whole cities and won every battle handily, until the fear of them was on the whole area!
    You are also correct that it is largely the liberal, left-wing factions of society that hate the jews; even left-wing jews hate Israel. Most left-wing people hate God’s people and God Himself.

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      1. As Geri exhorts you to do, I suggest you read Romans 10 and 11, as 10 is where Paul starts his discourse on his fellow jews, and by the end of chap 11 gives the final and definitive word of the Lord on His position on His people.

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      2. Pete Kever

        Yes I have read Romans many times. I don’t see where it states that national Israel has a separate plan to bring them to Jesus, or that God still owes them promises. All of God’s promises were completed in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. What more can God do besides the gift of His Son?

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      3. Because of His Namesake. Of the Many Covenants with Israel. God also made everlasting unconditional covenants with their forefathers. This does not mean they are saved. Jew and Greek alike need Christ. He is the ONLY way. Yet, they are still His Chosen People

        Jeremiah 31:35-37 (NASB)
        35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
        36 “If this fixed order departs From before Me,” declares the LORD, “Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever.”
        37 Thus says the LORD, “If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.

        The Fixed Order is still there. Hence they are still HIs Chosen People

        1 Chronicles 16:14-18 (NASB)
        14 He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all the earth.
        15 Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,
        16 The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac.
        17 He also confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
        18 Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan, As the portion of your inheritance.”

        Genesis 17:7 (NASB)
        7 “I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

        Keyword “Everlasting”

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      4. Pete Kever

        Brian, what does John 1:11-13 mean?

        Jhn 1:11 – He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

        Jhn 1:12 – But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

        Jhn 1:13 – Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

        “His own” were Jews, and only those who believed on His name…were called the sons of God. His people. And God states here they are spiritually His sons. Not of the flesh. Not DNA.

        What do these verses in Galatians 3 mean?

        Gal 3:7 – Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

        Gentiles too! This is clearly saying that things have changed.

        Gal 3:16 – Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

        The promises to the seed of Abraham are fulfilled in Jesus. He is the true Seed. And all who are in Him are part of that promise. Jew or Gentile.

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  4. Hey Pete, Hope you are well this day.

    John 11:1 Tells us that He was rejected by His Brothers (Jews) For a reason as Paul later will address:

    Romans 11:25-27 (NASB)
    25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
    26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
    27 “THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”

    (CAPS are a quotation of Old Testament. In this case Paul was referring to Is 59) NASB thing…

    John 11: 12-13 Is speaking of Salvation.

    John 3:7 (NASB)
    7 “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

    Romans 8:14-15 (NASB)
    14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
    15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

    And this applies to anyone Jew or Gentile:

    Romans 10:11-12 (NASB)
    11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
    12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

    We are talking Salvation here. In the sense that you and I are saved, we are indeed adopted sons of God.

    Galatians 3:7-8 (NASB)
    7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
    8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”

    The New Covenant which is an extension of the Abrahamic Covenant.

    Romans 4:3 (NASB)
    3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

    Genesis 15:6 (NASB)
    6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

    As we all Agree there is no other way to God but through Jesus. When we are Born Again by faith not works God Justifies us. He declares us righteous.

    Hence we are Spiritual seeds of Abraham. As you put it:
    “The promises to the seed of Abraham are fulfilled in Jesus. He is the true Seed. And all who are in Him are part of that promise. Jew or Gentile.”

    You are 100% correct.

    We are One New Man as in Eph 2:11-14

    We are the Body of Christ (The Church)

    God has many covenants. Pay attention to the ones reiterated as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Those pertain to descendants in the flesh (The Jews).

    It means He is not by no means done with them. The church has not replaced them. It is a distinct group. They are chosen for His Namesake. Meaning:

    Romans 11:28-29 (NASB)
    28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
    29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

    The Jews are a distinct group chosen by God. Does this mean they are saved by virtue of being Jewish? Absolutely not. As a believer you are a child of God. Jew or Greek. As a Jew you are beloved because God Made Promises to you Forefathers.

    God Can not Lie. God can not deny Himself. His Words are Truth and everything He says, He will do.

    Zechariah 12:9-10 (NASB)
    9 “And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

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    1. Pete Kever

      Hi Brian, thanks for writing. I appreciate the dialog. If Geri doesn’t want her wall filled with back and forth we can do this via email. Let me know and I will send my address.

      I grew up under the dispensational system, so I know it really well. But it is confusing. Basically if you just re-read what you wrote above, you are saying that God looks at national Israel as “His people” but not His children. Which is nowhere distinct in scripture. I mean…God will send most of His people to hell. That’s what you are admitting. Without Jesus, they go to hell.

      If a person is a Jew today, and they live their entire life as a Jew and reject Jesus as the Christ, you would admit they go to hell. So then…they did not get the Promises God had for them. Why not?

      Because they rejected Jesus, that’s why. So you would agree with me, that in order to get the Promises of God, a Jew has to accept Jesus.

      If they accept Jesus, what do they become? A member of …. THE CHURCH.

      So in that sense, the church has “replaced” something. I don’t agree that the church replaced Israel, but I do believe that JESUS and His work on the cross replaced all kinds of things. Like…sacrifices, for example.

      So perhaps you are trying to make a distinction between individual Jews and the nation as a whole. Are you?

      If you read Romans 11:26 you will see, using a little Greek from Strong’s, that the word “so” does not mean “therefore” in the Greek. It is the Greek word “houtō(s)” which actually means “in this manner.”

      So, read it again:

      Rom 11:26 And [IN THIS MANNER] all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

      That’s why the King James translators put a colon after saved. It’s says that ALL ISRAEL is saved in the same manner … through the Deliverer, Jesus.

      Your thoughts.

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      1. Pete, I am glad that you are willing to be in dialogue with others about this subject, and I appreciate your choosing to remain kind as well as open to dividing the word with others. This subject is very important, imho.
        I am glad that you seemed to make a distinction between individual jews getting saved and becoming part of the church, and Israel as a nation. I think that it is the nation of Israel that paul is referring to in romans 10 and 11; he is saying that they in effect, have been lopped off the tree and the gentiles have been grafted on. He later suggests that they can be grafted back on; but it suggests to me that maybe this “tree” onto which the gentiles were grafted is The Family Of God-that, we became children of Abraham, as he says later (or earlier). Our disobedient brethren the jews will be joining us as a group when Jesus comes and reveals Himself to them, taking away their blindness (remember He blinded them purposely), and, as you cite, “in this manner all Israel will be saved”.
        If I may drone on, addressing your issue with God sending people to hell for not believing in Jesus, it is the age-old method of God that I see throughout scripture that a whole lot of people have to suffer and die until finally God acts in a way to save them as a group or people, etc. Every kind of “salvation” seems to have its time; I am grateful to have been born when and where I did, such that I am saved and safe with God, whereas others have seemingly lived a vain existence. That seems awful, but I do also believe in universal salvation, or ultimate reconciliation, based on the scripture where paul says that God will bring all things under Jesus’ feet, and then Jesus will be brought under God’s feet, and death will be defeated, etc.
        Also, thanks Brian and Geri for your great contributions to this discussion!
        Jean

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      2. Pete Kever

        Jean, I disagree with your premise that Paul has “the nation of Israel” in view in Romans 10 and 11. In fact, it is individual Jews that Paul is speaking about. The entire nation of Israel has not been lopped off the tree…only some of the branches (individuals).

        Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

        So at the time Paul wrote this to the Christians in Rome, there was already a remnant in the tree. Who were these people? Those who accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior, like Paul did.

        Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

        Paul says that Gentile branches were graffed in AMONG the original (Jewish) branches. Again, that means some branches, the remnant, were still on the tree. In Romans 9 he uses language that indicates he is sorrowful for individual Isrealites:

        Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

        Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

        “Who are Israelites”. That’s individualistic….otherwise Paul would have said “Who is Israel.”

        Paul is not describing a nation here, he is describing members of that nation who are unsaved. These were people Paul knew well. They are people he “hung with”. I imagine (this is speculation) that they are guys that he grew VERY close to over the early years before his conversion. Remember, he was a very zealous Jew.

        It’s important because only in viewing these broken off branches as individuals that Paul knew, does Romans 11 make sense. He says these branches were broken off because of unbelief (Romans 11:20) but….

        Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

        This makes a lot more sense if viewed as individuals. Paul is saying if these individuals turn away from their unbelief, God is able to put them back into the tree. It’s conditional. They have to turn away. Hopefully, some of them did before their lives were over.

        My issue isn’t “God sending people to hell for not believing in Jesus” etc. My issue is that if you claim people are “God’s people” simply because of DNA….He would not case them away into hell (Romans 11:2). That goes directly against what you are arguing. And, Romans 2 pretty much proves that God is not giving people salvation just because they claim a certain bloodline.

        Respectfully, Pete

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      3. thank you, Pete; you made a good case. However, I have to ask: how does that idea square with paul’s last statement (in 11:260: “….in this manner ALL Israel will be saved….” (this statement is what leads me to speculate that he was always talking about His people-the Jews, as a “people group” if not a nation.

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      4. Pete Kever

        Hi Jean,

        Paul is saying that all of Israel is saved in the same way: through Jesus Christ. There is no other way that any of them can be saved.

        Kind of like saying…”in this manner shall all people get into the Super Bowl: they must have a ticket.”

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      5. In Romans 11, Paul clearly articulates why Israel was blinded in part – and that is so that the Gentiles could come into the Kingdom of God. And when that last Gentile enters in, only then will the eyes of Israel be opened to their Messiah Yeshua. EVERYONE – Gentile and Jew must come to God through Jesus Christ and Him alone.

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      6. Universal Salvation is not found anywhere in Scripture. One has to re-write the Word of God to get it to support such a belief. If you say that you believe that ALL will be ultimately saved – please supply us with passages of Scripture which support that belief.

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      7. Geri, this is s snapshot from all that I’ve read so far:
        Thomas Talbott, who wrote “the inescapable love of God”, sees romans chapter 5 as full of universalism, and sees paul as preaching universal reconciliation.
        some of his other letters contain verses that support this idea:
        “And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood shed on the cross.” [Colossians 1:19-20]
        “For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all” (romans 11:32:
        “for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ” (I Corinthians 15:22).

        these scriptures by themselves do not necessarily make a case for universalism, but this is the passage I always think of if I need just one passage that “says it all”
        1 corinthians 15:24-28
        Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all”.
        therefore, if God is going to subdue all things unto Himself, including death, how could there then be a separate place where souls are still being tormented?

        Like

      8. If you read Romans 11:26 you will see, using a little Greek from Strong’s, that the word “so” does not mean “therefore” in the Greek. It is the Greek word “houtō(s)” which actually means “in this manner.”

        So, read it again:

        Rom 11:26 And [IN THIS MANNER] all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

        .

        Yes, you are correct on the Greek word οὕτως. However Koine Greek follows grammatical rules as to its specific use. Using Strong’s keyed to the KJV οὕτως translates:

        So 164 times
        Thus 17 times
        Even So 9 times
        On this wise 6 times
        Likewise 4 times
        After this manner 3 times

        I’ve gotten myself into trouble plucking individual words out of the bible and using Strong’s to translate it back into its place in the english sentence. With Hebrew, which I’m more fluent in, words more so change as where they appear or the usage in a context. Also if I directly translate Word for word in Hebrew to English, the sentence would make no sense. It would be scrambled.

        With Koine Greek it follows a more close structure to english than Hebrew. So I’ll pluck each word from Romans 11:26

        καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται, καθὼς γέγραπται Ἥξει ἐκ Σιὼν ὁ Ῥυόμενος, ἀποστρέψει ἀσεβείας ἀπὸ Ἰακώβ.

        English in the precise order of the Greek

        AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED – AS IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN – WILL COME OUT OF ZION – THE ONE DELIVERING, HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB

        (So) or (In this Way) would be most accurate. Despite that the Word says All Israel will be saved.

        When in history has that happened? We have but one choice. Either take the words literally or allegorically.

        There are indeed allegorical scriptures. Such as Pluck your Eye out ETC. I would suggest that to take nearly 1/3 of the Bible and dismiss it as allegory, would not be wise.

        Pete, What is your starting point?
        Are you:
        Preterist?
        Amillennialist?
        Calvinist?
        Reformed Theology?

        Some of those /All of those /None of those?

        Is modern Israel there because God said so? Or is it an accident?
        Has all scripture been fulfilled in 70 AD or is Jesus going to return and Reign for 1000 years of the Throne of David in Jerusalem?

        Let’s start there

        With respect
        Brian

        Like

      9. thank you so much, brian, for this important information. I had already accepted pete’s assertion that it’s supposed to be “in this manner”, whereas you showed that that particular interpretation is translated only 3 times, versus 164 times for “so”; therefore, I’m going back to “so”.
        I hope that he continues this dialogue, and reveals “where he’s coming from”. I have noticed that the people believing in (I can’t remember what it’s called) the idea that Jesus came back in 70 AD are tenacious in their belief in that and dogged in their efforts to convert the masses to this doctrine.

        Like

      10. Pete Kever

        Hi Brian, I was busy all day and now I see that I am way behind LOL. I can try to answer some things. No, I am not a preterist per se but I definitely think that the Olivet Discourse is not describing the end of the planet earth, and I think that Revelation 1:1-3 plainly say that those things in the book were to come to pass shortly, and the time was at hand, in the 1st century. I really don’t want to get into that here, this is getting off topic. My main point is that modern dispensationalism is a huge point of disagreement for me.

        So, I don’t subscribe to dispensationalism, I guess you could say I am covenant theology-oriented. But I am not “Calvinist” either although he had a few things right (so did Darby). And that doesn’t automatically make someone a preterist. I go to a CT church and they are not preterists.

        By the way, I DO seek truth even if it hurts at times. I think that dispensationalism is so so bad, mainly because it basically agrees with unbelieving Israel, saying that Jesus never did actually fulfill His role as Messiah. It then goes on to teach that He will do that later, in a second coming attempt. I think that’s bad. Really bad.

        God’s plan for Messiah Jesus was exactly what happened, and Jesus is King. Just as God planned. Because of the cross. He isn’t “waiting to be King” because of the cross. HE IS KING because of the cross. Philippians 2:8-9.

        I can agree of course that God has revealed Himself and dealt with mankind in different ways throughout history, of course. Whether someone calls those dispensations or eras, or ages or covenants, who cares? The big contention is this stuff over “Israel” and that is what I am talking about here in this thread.

        Your post on “everlasting” can be answered very simply: I believe these everlasting covenants were fulfilled 100% through Jesus Christ. The end. It’s clear that God’s entire plan culminated in the death and resurrection of Jesus. Peter speaks about that in Acts 2 and several other places throughout Acts. Paul rounds it out in several places. Peter and James and John all tie in the Jewish thought process, using the old testament to prove it.

        If you approach the Bible with a modern dispensational view, you can make it fit no problem. But you also have to add a lot of things and change basic words to make it fit.

        You say we cannot “allegorize” the whole Bible away. Where am I doing that?

        And what’s wrong with allegory anyway? We all believe in it for our very salvation. In Hebrews 9, the writer says that the actual physical literal temple and sacraments and priesthood….were NOT the real. Hebrews 9:24 calls them “figures of the true.” Heb 9:11 says Christ’s body is a “greater and more perfect tabernacle” than the actual tabernacle. So you see….GOD spiritualizes the Bible all the time. I have many, many other examples.

        And we think the RCC is really evil because they DON’T allegorize the communion elements. I mean….making sweeping comments like “allegorizing is bad” isn’t helpful at all. We all believe in allegory in places. Allegory does not make something less true, or less powerful.

        Finally, regarding “all Israel shall be saved…” again, very simple: even dispensationalists don’t believe that literally means ALL Israel. The teaching from your side is that this “all Israel” is actually referring to a “remnant of all Israel.” And we know that all Israel has never been saved. Many Jews have sadly died in their sins…and pre-millennial dispensationalists believe 2/3 of them will be killed by the beast and many will go to hell. How is that “all Israel” being saved?

        Your statement that Rom 11:25 says “until the full number of the Gentiles has come in” – I disagree that is what that means. The verse says “blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” The fullness of the Gentiles is most likely alluding to the same fullness of Israel in verse 12:

        Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

        Paul was looking for a time when Gentiles would be richly filled with the grace of God, when most of the world’s Gentiles would be saved. Not when a certain NUMBER per se were saved, but when God had filled up the tree with them. He says here “what if Jews were partaking in the richness of the grace of God rather than falling? How much greater would they be as a testimony?”

        I am happy to say that I think it is entirely possible God will bring in a huge number of Jews one day. I pray for it in fact.

        But until evangelical Christians stop agreeing with unbelieving Jews about Jesus…that will be harder to gain.

        Thanks again. I know this is a lot.

        Like

      11. So, you’re not a dispensationalist. So you believe that the church has replaced Israel in the eyes of God? I know that most Reformed churches believe in Replacement theology. – which I clearly feel is a misinterpretation of Scripture.

        Like

      12. Pete Kever

        “So you believe that the church has replaced Israel in the eyes of God?”

        No. The church is made up of both Jews and Gentiles in Christ. Gentiles have been grafted into the blessings and promises God gave Israel, and together we are the church. Saying that the church replaced Israel makes no sense, it’s an apples -to- oranges comparison.

        Any Jew that was saved in Paul’s day (including Paul himself) became part of the church. Dispensationalism teaches that Paul and other Jews have given up God’s promises to them as Israelites. You insist that the promises in the OT are strictly for national Israel…therefore if a Jew comes to Jesus Christ (and becomes part of the church) – he or she doesn’t get those promises! That’s impossible, God cannot lie.

        God’s promises to Israel are in Jesus Christ. Therefore all who have faith in Jesus get the promises God gave Israel – Israel was first, Gentiles were second.

        The branches in Romans 11 are clearly individuals. Gentile branches are grafted in AMONG remaining (remnant) branches (Rom 11:17).

        Like

      13. Yes, I agree that I am part of the church – the only difference being that I am also part of the remnant of Jewish believers in Yeshua. I am trying to understand your theology. Are you a Calvinist?

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      14. thank you so much, brian, for this important information. I had already accepted pete’s assertion that it’s supposed to be “in this manner”, whereas you showed that that particular interpretation is translated only 3 times, versus 164 times for “so”; therefore, I’m going back to “so”.
        I hope that he continues this dialogue, and reveals “where he’s coming from”. I have noticed that the people believing in (I can’t remember what it’s called) the idea that Jesus came back in 70 AD are tenacious in their belief in that and dogged in their efforts to convert the masses to this doctrine.

        Pete isn’t far off on the translation of the word. It’s the context and usage. Keep in mind we are trying to pick english words that best represent the original language.

        People say I like this translation or that translation. A translation is like kissing the bride thru the veil.

        I really have no issue with “In this manner”

        The problem is when we take a passage and totally disregard the context. Who wrote it? Where was it written? Who was it written to? Why was it written?

        Lets zoom out a tad and read the thought in a larger context. Using “in this way”

        Romans 11:25-27 (HCSB)
        25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
        26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Liberator will come from Zion; He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
        27 And this will be My covenant with them when I take away their sins.

        A partial hardening of who?
        Israel (The jews)

        Until when?
        full number of the Gentiles has come in

        When is that?
        See Gentiles come to the Lord everyday. Only the LORD knows.

        And in the way/ So/ And in this manner….. Israel will be saved

        In what manner?
        The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will turn away godlessness from Jacob

        When is that?

        Zechariah 12:1-10 (NASB)
        1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,
        2 “Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah.
        3 “It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.
        4 “In that day,” declares the LORD, “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.
        5 “Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the LORD of hosts, their God.’
        6 “In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem.
        7 “The LORD also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah.
        8 “In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them.
        9 “And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
        10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

        There are tons of replete scriptures to continue on. But for sake of brevity I’ll stop at Zech.

        As for all fulfillment at 70 AD that is Preterism.

        Pete no doubt seeks the truth as we all do.

        Shalom

        Liked by 1 person

      15. Hi Brian, I was busy all day and now I see that I am way behind LOL. I can try to answer some things. No, I am not a preterist per se but I definitely think that the Olivet Discourse is not describing the end of the planet earth, and I think that Revelation 1:1-3 plainly say that those things in the book were to come to pass shortly, and the time was at hand, in the 1st century. I really don’t want to get into that here, this is getting off topic. My main point is that modern dispensationalism is a huge point of disagreement for me.

        Thanks Pete. I just wanted to see your overall starting point. As you see you can’t paint someone with a broad brush. I really don’t adhere to Dispensationalism. I am premillennialist is anything. I believe in the literal return of the Lord Jesus. I didn’t intend to run on a tangent. I just wanted to see your overall viewpoint.

        Before continuing let me be very clear. Although I do not agree with some of your views, If you are a believer in Christ, Then you are my brother. God will judge between you and I. CT I mostly disagree with. Yet on points of salvation we are in agreement.

        On God’s Prophetic Words. I take those at literal face value. Nearly 1/3 of scripture is prophetic. Every prophetic Word of God has been fulfilled as he said. So then those that haven’t been fulfilled yet will be, if I apply that logic uniformly. So either they mean what they say, or it’s allegorical. I believe in the literal interpretation. Agree or disagree that’s fine.

        Now to the point of my ministry I am in Jewish Ministry. I VERY difficult ministry. Yet many Jews still are coming to the Lord. I actually know and associate with more Jewish believer than Gentile. Only because of the nature of the ministry and the time I put into it. Yet my pastor, A jewish believer speaks at churches all through western Pennsylvania.

        I am happy to say that I think it is entirely possible God will bring in a huge number of Jews one day. I pray for it in fact.

        But until evangelical Christians stop agreeing with unbelieving Jews about Jesus…that will be harder to gain.

        There are Huge numbers of Jews becoming believers in the Land (Israel). It’s one of the fastest growing faiths in Israel. Maybe just as the Prophet spoke? Ez 37-38

        What do you mean by “Agreeing with unbelieving Jews about Jesus”?

        I Disagree with unbelieving anyone (Jew Greek) concerning Jesus

        All the everlasting covenant I posted for you are all concerning the land.

        Jesus fulfilled the LAW That was a covenant to Israel thru Moses.

        How did Jesus Fulfill those each specifically is my question. The ones I posted.

        Have a blessed Day

        Like

  5. Hey there Pete. Hope all is well.

    I’m going to bombard you with some scriptures. Go through each and let me know your thoughts.
    I’ll try to check back by the weekend, time permitting. These scriptures are replete concerning God and his covenants with Israel (jacob)

    Key words are “Everlasting Covenant”

    Genesis 17:7 (NASB)
    7 “I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

    Genesis 17:8 (NASB)
    8 “I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
    Genesis 17:19-20 (NASB)
    19 But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
    20 “As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.

    Genesis 28:13 (NASB)
    13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said, “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants.
    Leviticus 26:42 (NASB)
    42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and My covenant with Abraham as well, and I will remember the land.

    Psalm 105:8-11 (NASB)
    8 He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,
    9 The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac.
    10 Then He confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
    11 Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan As the portion of your inheritance,”

    1 Chronicles 16:14-18 (NASB)
    14 He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all the earth.
    15 Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,
    16 The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac.
    17 He also confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
    18 Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan, As the portion of your inheritance.”

    Jeremiah 31:35-37 (NASB)
    35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
    36 “If this fixed order departs From before Me,” declares the LORD, “Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever.”
    37 Thus says the LORD, “If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.

    Like

    1. You insist that the promises in the OT are strictly for national Israel…therefore if a Jew comes to Jesus Christ

      Who is insisting upon that in this discussion? There are Many promises/Covenants in the OT. Take each one at face value.

      Every scripture quoted in the box above is specifically to the nation/people of israel. These are a land covenant, that have NOTHING to do with salvation. They are unconditional and everlasting meaning without end. The are God’s chosen people for the sake of the fathers. I have another set of scriptures that will continue to build upon this. But first go through each and let me know your thoughts of these scriptures at face value.

      There are also conditional covenants made to Israel, I’ll get to those after you respond to these ones.

      Brian

      Like

      1. Pete Kever

        Brian sorry if I made some assumptions. I will address your points. But first I want to address the question you had about why I say that too many Christians agree with unbelieving Jews.

        What I mean by that is – the unbelieving Jews of Jesus’ day did not believe He was Messiah, nor accept Him, because He did not look like Messiah. He claimed to come from God, and they had always been told that God has no Son, that nobody can come from God, that no man can be equal with God. They were expecting a superior man who would be born just like any other man, and save them from their troubles, and re-create David’s kingdom and restore them to glory as they had been before. Do you agree that this was their view?

        That same view is carried through today. Watch videos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7Cui-E0DOY.

        Listen to what unbelieving Jews say, if they get into detail. “Jesus did not do what Messiah is supposed to do.”

        The dispensational view AGREES with that. It says that Jesus WAS supposed to set up the kingdom, but He did not…it was put on hold because the Jews rejected Him. But don’t worry, He will set it up “someday”. To an unbelieving Jew that’s an excuse. It’s been 2000 years, where is this kingdom He promised?

        I think that’s really bad, because … Jesus DID set up His kingdom. It is not of this world (John 18:36). Jesus IS the king (Matt 28:18-20, Acts 2:29-31, Phil 2:8-9, Eph 1:20-22, Rev 1:5). He is the King because of the cross. He fulfilled all of the promises to Israel. If we claim that there are still promises to fulfill, then we agree with Jews who say Jesus did not fulfill His role as Messiah.

        Do you see what I am saying?

        Like

      2. That same view is carried through today. Watch videos like this

        Ask unbelieving Gentiles what they think about Jesus. You’ll find similar answers. But Let’s stick with the Jews. This is a ministry i have expertise in. I know saved jews as well as unsaved.

        Misconceptions of Jews
        #1 Jews are religious. No true, actually last I looked orthodox Jews are maybe 16% or so.
        #2 Jews know the bible. Not remotely true.

        Atheism is the #1 faith amongst Jews.

        Listen to what unbelieving Jews say, if they get into detail. “Jesus did not do what Messiah is supposed to do.”

        They have no idea about who Messiah is or what he’s supposed to do. If I walk the streets of say LA and ask ordinary folkes about who Jesus is. You will find many different answers likely all wrong.

        The dispensational view AGREES with that. It says that Jesus WAS supposed to set up the kingdom, but He did not…it was put on hold because the Jews rejected Him

        Dispensational views are so varied depending on who you ask. It’s a smorgasbord of opinions. I don’t lump myself into any categories.. Dis-pensationalism or Dat-pensationalism. I myself adopt the biblical view as the scriptures are written. When in doubt I follow one rule. Use the bible to interpret the bible.

        Ancient Jewish sages used to believe there were two Messiahs to come. Messiah Ben-Joseph and Messiah Ben-David. Scripture plainly does show two types of Messiah. The Suffering Servant and the Conquering King.

        There are upwards of 140ish Messianic prophecies in the OT. Every single one about the suffering servant was fulfilled. E.g. Is 53 or Psalm 22

        There are two advents (comings) of Messiah. OT scripture is very clear there.
        Toss out the OT and Jesus Himself said he was going to return. Yes?

        Here are a few (of dozens) from the NT

        Matthew 24:30-31 (ESV)
        30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
        31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

        When has Jesus returned in the clouds?
        If I take this at face value, it says He is going to.

        Acts 1:11 (ESV)
        11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

        When was that fulfilled?
        If interpreted literally it hasn’t yet. But if God said so, it will.

        But timing….. Yeah Lets see.

        but He did not…it was put on hold because the Jews rejected Him. But don’t worry, He will set it up “someday”. To an unbelieving Jew that’s an excuse. It’s been 2000 years, where is this kingdom He promised?

        2 Peter 3:1-4 (ESV)
        1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
        2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
        3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
        4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”

        2 Peter 3:9-10 (ESV)
        9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
        10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

        For sake of space I just highlighted these passages. Please read all of chapter 3

        I think that’s really bad, because … Jesus DID set up His kingdom. It is not of this world (John 18:36)

        Jesus did not say that He had no kingdom in this world, or that He would never rule on earth. He does have a kingdom in this world, wherever there are people who have trusted Him and yielded to His sovereignty. One day He shall return and establish a righteous kingdom on earth (Dan. 7:13-28). Pilate’s concern was the source of this kingdom: where did Jesus derive His authority

        If we claim that there are still promises to fulfill, then we agree with Jews who say Jesus did not fulfill His role as Messiah.

        We do? I don’t….. He fulfilled 100% every Messianic prophecy concerning his first coming.

        There are also many prophecies yet to be fulfilled concerning the Jews and the Return of Jesus.

        Zechariah 14:1-5 (ESV)
        1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.
        2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
        3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
        4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
        5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

        When has this happened?

        Zechariah 14:16-19 (ESV)
        16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.
        17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
        18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
        19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

        When have all the Gentile nations gone up to Jerusalem to keep Sukkot?

        I can keep going with scores of OT scriptures. Not to mention Revelation….

        שלום
        Blessings to you Pete
        .

        Liked by 1 person

      3. Pete Kever

        Hi Brian I appreciate your “when did this happen” questions but if we want to talk about those, we should start a different thread. It’s just too time-consuming. Suffice to say, I believe Zechariah was fulfilled already after the captivities as described in Ezra, Nehemiah and Esther. We even have Ezra 6:14 saying that the returned remnant was blessed through Zechariah’s preaching.

        My main point in all of this is that modern dispensationalism is an affront to Jesus Christ and His work on the cross for Israel. If you don’t believe in that, great. Maybe you and I have more in common than me and Geri.

        The Jews I am talking about are the ones in Israel. I know most of them are atheist. Those who believe in a Messiah of any kind (like Ben Shapiro, for example) believe he will be a man like you and me and will lead Israel to glory. Jesus never did that, they say, so He was not Messiah. Dispies agree that He has not done that “yet”. Again….that’s wrong. He DID lead them to glory, just not the glory they expected or even wanted. Matthew 1:21 says He was called Jesus because He would save His people from their SINS.

        Where in the OT is there an explicit description of 2 comings?

        We agree that the 2 Messiahs are the same person, Jesus. Is it not possible that He fulfilled both roles at the first coming? Why did Jesus not tell the 2 people on the road to Emmaus that, if that was true? Luke 24:25-27.

        What do you do with Acts 2:22-36 where Peter clearly and explicitly states Jesus had ascended to David’s throne as promised in Psalm 110, the most-quoted verse in the New Testament?

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  6. Pete Kever

    Geri,

    “I agree that I am part of the church – the only difference being that I am also part of the remnant of Jewish believers in Yeshua.”

    I don’t really understand what you are saying here. What distinction are you making between yourself and Gentiles, if any?

    When you got saved and became part of the church, did you give up any of the blessings that God promised you?

    Like

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